Topic-iconStarving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

habaya created the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

5 months 3 weeks ago

The side that has more order tokens has a clear advantage in torpedo warfare. Best tactic seems to be to wait with the torpedo attack until the enemy is starved of order tokens. Then, when the target ship either maneuvered or cannot maneuver any more, it'time launch the torpedoes for guaranteed success (if target has not maneuvered its course is known due to restrictions on obligatory movements).

The above is not a problem in itself, but in our games it led to fake, unnecessary, gamey orders. Here is what I mean: let's say I have less things to do in the activations phase than my opponent (because I have less ships), but I own more tokens (because I have a good officer or some other bonus). Then, when I am done with the orders I wanted to play, I will not launch my torpedoes to allow the target to escape. I will also not pass, because that will prevent me from launching my torpedoes. Instead, I will do something meaningless for that situation: like merge some air groups, or play an advanced order for extra tokens, split squadrons and move ships one-by-one etc. Then when the opponent is out of tokens, I will launch my torpedoes. I find this very gamey, it would be great if the game could prevent this kind of "fake" orders.

One way to solve it is to allow the torpedo launcher to "freeze" or limit the target's movement, but that would basically cancel the delayed effect of torpedoes, which is not good. Has anyone faced this issue? Any thoughts how this could be solved?

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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

5 months 3 weeks ago

Nope, actually only seen it in very rare circumstances. It requires two orders to get a successful torpedo attack in. You need to move in position and then launch (discounting torpedo run because it can be disrupted). So even if you have more tokens, you need to move into position, at which point the opponent knows the reach and the heading of your torpedo attack. He can now counter move by either moving out of range or by changing his heading to get a +1 to his hit score. If he has no tokens left, he still has the option to use a tactical order token to either move if he didn't or use evasive maneuvers (since that is a reaction order, you can just pass in the activation phase and save the order token).

In practically all our games getting a torpedo attack in was pretty risky, since all guns will be trained on the attacking destroyers. If you 'skip' multiple activations you usually only get more incoming fire, so in our games usually torpedoes were launched at first possibility before the enemy got a chance to sink the DD's.

It is also pretty unusual to get such a large difference in tokens, when that happens, usually the tide has already turned and the initiative is firmly in the hands of the opponent. If there is no return fire, well... you deserve to be torpedoed because that is what would happen if you let a DD get into knife range.


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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

5 months 3 weeks ago

I see I forgot to add. Since there are tactical order tokens (which you can use at any time) and since you can save an order token for evasive maneuvers. The fake orders almost never come into play. If your target has already moved, there is no point holding the attack. If he waits with moving, he can just see how big the difference in order tokens is and act accordingly. If he cannot outplay you, he should just save a token for evasion, or pass and use a tactical token. If he ran out of all those options, there is no point in delaying your movement and your opponent is better off trying to get a advantageous angle to the inevitable attack.


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"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been;" -Ecclesiastes-

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habaya replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

5 months 3 weeks ago

Naval War HQ wrote: Nope, actually only seen it in very rare circumstances.

That's because you do not play carrier clash with lots of subs :D

Naval War HQ wrote: It requires two orders to get a successful torpedo attack in. You need to move in position and then launch (discounting torpedo run because it can be disrupted). So even if you have more tokens, you need to move into position, at which point the opponent knows the reach and the heading of your torpedo attack.

Well, not necessarily - normally submarines can be in range at the start of the turn because they hidden moved in the previous remaining actions phase. If that's the case, afaik only one order token is needed to reveal and attack.

Naval War HQ wrote: In practically all our games getting a torpedo attack in was pretty risky, since all guns will be trained on the attacking destroyers. If you 'skip' multiple activations you usually only get more incoming fire, so in our games usually torpedoes were launched at first possibility before the enemy got a chance to sink the DD's.

Generally true, but not in carrier clash. There not much gunfighting there.

Naval War HQ wrote: If your target has already moved, there is no point holding the attack. If he waits with moving, he can just see how big the difference in order tokens is and act accordingly. If he cannot outplay you, he should just save a token for evasion, or pass and use a tactical token. If he ran out of all those options, there is no point in delaying your movement and your opponent is better off trying to get a advantageous angle to the inevitable attack.

This is all correct, but most times it comes down to "what do I do while he is playing his necessary activations?" He will wait with his maneuver order until the last moment possible (because I can torpedo him as soon as he maneuvered) and prays I will not be able to play enough fake orders. Sometimes it is hard to find a fake order, options are limited :)But if I succeed, I will torpedo him in the last turn for sure. Actually, most times both players had the same amount of tokens and the one who had the initiative ran out of tokens sooner, so got his ships torpedoed. This is kind of unfair.

I understand your points and probably it's not a common phenomenon, because in most scenarios you cannot waste orders, otherwise your fleets going to get hurt. This issue very well may be specific to carrier clash with many submarines.

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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

5 months 3 weeks ago

The case is specific to one list (only the Coral sea carrier lists have subs) and one scenario. I'll look into it. You are right that in Carrier clash these things will become more apparent.

Submarine warfare is pretty basic and unpolished now. After surface and air it is the last region to expand on and balance.


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"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been;" -Ecclesiastes-
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andrewcooke71 replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

5 months 2 weeks ago

If I can throw in my 2 cents....
I will agree on the most with habaya, from the experience of running the Tokyo Express scenarios. These being the brutal night fights have mainly been decided by which ever side gets lucky with it's torpedoes. Having even a slight disadvantage in order tokens means the opponent can pick and choose how and when to launch torpedo attacks. My 2 house rules I came up with to somewhat mitigate this were to allow the use of 2 disruption tokens to pass an activation, once per turn and both sides cannot pass one after the other. The other was to make it harder to hit with torpedoes, but you can still get lucky and it only takes one long lance to hit to ruin a US DDs night. But that being said I have played different rule sets and there is no "best" way to run torps. The way they are here is easy to manage.

Last edit: 5 months 2 weeks ago by andrewcooke71.

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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

4 months 3 weeks ago

In the 1.5.06 rules I've cleaned up the sequence of activation's. A tactical order token allows you to activate even after you've passed earlier activation's. Once both players passed an activation, the phase ends. This should mitigate this effect a bit, adding more value to the tactical order tokens.


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"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been;" -Ecclesiastes-

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andrewcooke71 replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

4 months 3 weeks ago

I feel there should be some consequence to passing a turn by the use of disruption markers, 2 I felt was about right. I do like the idea that once both players have passed the turn is over. Another dynamic there is if you do play your disrutption markers and your opponent declines to play an order token the turn ends. Or maybe with your new command card deck builder scheme you could add in a "pass the turn" or "Your go Mate" order token activation which could be along the lines of if succesful keep your order token and pass your turn, mild fail you must activate a squadron for a basic maneuver and bad fail not quite sure...

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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

4 months 2 weeks ago

But don't all these measures just delay the inevitable with one turn? This means that we introduce new rules etc. just for the one event that an opponent has one more order token than you have. But now the other player will complain that even with a carefully calculated extra order token he still does not get to make his activation, so he will want the option to pass too. Which will then start the whole circus all over again... This is like circular reasoning...

If the opponent has two extra order tokens, spending 2 disruption tokens will not bring you any further, as he will delay his order by just another round and you still can't prevent him from outmaneuvering you. The outcome of a system that alternates activations is that at some point someone will actually have the last activation....one way or the other...


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"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been;" -Ecclesiastes-

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andrewcooke71 replied the topic: Starving the opponent of order tokens for torpedo attack

4 months 2 weeks ago

You're right, I do like the mechanic you have added in the new version.

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