Topic-iconCoral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

habaya created the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

1 month 1 day ago

One thing we noticed in Coral Sea OOB carrier clashes is that surprisingly not the air war, but submarines decide the battle. Normally, 2-3 submarines are chosen by each side - that seems to be the best tactic.

At the beginning of the battle, air scouts are used to reveal tokens - this normally takes 2-4 turns. By the time ships are revealed, submarines are already in range of launching their torpedos - even if we use 1.5 rules and start them with marker dies showing 3. This is because they were deployed on the enemy side of the battlefield, destroyers are hidden and airplanes are scouting. There is simply no way to hunt for submarines before they get into launching range.

Then basically the battle comes down to who can starve the other one from command tokens, thus preventing them to maneuver away from torpedoes. If one side is out of tokens, the other player can easily calculate where the enemy ships will be after the compulsory moves and launch there torpedos with great confidence.

Naturally, this could be prevented if submarines start without a marker die, but I am not sure this is the best solution. What is your opinion?

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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

1 month 1 day ago

Interesting, the submarine integration into those 'new' scenario's did not see much play yet, so I'm not very surprised that some loopholes would emerge. Submarines were often involved in scouting and as such deserve a place there, but balancing them is a different beast altogether. I'd think I'd maybe start by reducing the number available in the OOB, then I might take a look at the starting marker die, that one indeed has not been balanced for the situation that most of the ships are not on the table for several turns.


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habaya replied the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

3 weeks 6 days ago

We played a full game with submarines starting on surface and equal tokens. It played out pretty well.

Both fleets revealed their own destroyer squardrons immediately so they could hunt for subs right from the start. By the time carriers were discovered most subs were either destroyed or trying to escape. With emphasis on destroyer escorts only 1 out of 5 subs could launch its torpedos and hit a carrier - but even that single sub was killed immediately after that.

The only downside was that the subs were not able to scout hidden tokens at all, as they were immediately under pressure, had to run for their lives.

Wanted to ask about new squadron forming. One of the fleets started with a 4-destroyer squadron becuase only one escorting squadron per fleet is allowed in this scenario. But right after starting the 4 destroyer squardon was divided into two two destroyer sqadrons (so both had his own flagship). This way they could hunt subs better. Is this legal? If yes, it feels a bit gamey, but still necessary.

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habaya replied the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

3 weeks 6 days ago

One more thing. Could you elaborate what exactly Takagi's "gets one token if no squadrons are below half strength" means? What exactly is "squadron strength"? Like if I have a big fleet that has a tiny squadron of 2 destroyers - if the more expensive destroyer is killed then I do not get the extra token? What about subs - do all subs count as one squadron from this perspective?

Last edit: 3 weeks 6 days ago by habaya.

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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

3 weeks 5 days ago

habaya wrote: Wanted to ask about new squadron forming. One of the fleets started with a 4-destroyer squadron becuase only one escorting squadron per fleet is allowed in this scenario. But right after starting the 4 destroyer squardon was divided into two two destroyer sqadrons (so both had his own flagship). This way they could hunt subs better. Is this legal? If yes, it feels a bit gamey, but still necessary.


On page 4 the splitting of squadrons is mentioned: "If one squadron splits itself into multiple squadrons it is allowed to appoint new flagships to each of the new squadrons only if the original squadron flagship is still operational and unengaged."

So yes, your tactic is legal


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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

3 weeks 5 days ago

habaya wrote: One more thing. Could you elaborate what exactly Takagi's "gets one token if no squadrons are below half strength" means? What exactly is "squadron strength"? Like if I have a big fleet that has a tiny squadron of 2 destroyers - if the more expensive destroyer is killed then I do not get the extra token? What about subs - do all subs count as one squadron from this perspective?


Squadron strength for this ability is the number of ships in a squadron. So if you have only squadrons of 2 ships, the enemy needs to take out both ships in a squadron to bring it under strength.


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Naval War HQ replied the topic: Coral Sea OOB: Submarines in Carrier Clash

3 weeks 5 days ago

Well, at least that worked out somewhat to plan. I have to admit that I never envisioned a player bringing the full 3 subs to a carrier battle... It is indeed taking the list to its unintended limits.
The addition of subs to the carrier lists is mainly intended as an equalizer, to make sure you bring at least a DD or two instead of going full throttle on AA cover. It was of course not the intention that bringing lots of subs was more effective than bringing a good carrier fleet. So I'm glad that this is now counterable within the meta of the game.


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"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been;" -Ecclesiastes-

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